clucking start motor, wierd electrics and non turning engine

[shimon340]

Hi guys!

Just looking for some ideas from you guys. I havent had a chance to look properly yet ( it was dark and raining ) but when trying to start my 340 this evening the following occured

Its an E reg 1.4

The car has been unused for 6 weeks ( since getting the 480 ). I tried to start it using its own battery and it turned over a few times rather slowly in the way indicative of a flat battery.

I had with me a battery from a 440 so connected the two batteries together as per a jump start situation.

the car turned over slowly then stopped. then, turning the key to the starter motor position - cluck, cluck - sounds like the starter has jammed. The solenoid is moving forward but the motor isnt turning. Sounds like it anyway.

does this a few times. I check the engine is free to move, but it isnt. turning the water pump pulley merely moves the pulley and not the belt and ditto for the altenator pulley... odd

I tried to turn the engine via the crank pulley ( 19mm nut ) and it wouldnt budge. Stuck solid!

The car has only stood for 6 weeks and Ive had other cars stand longer than that unstarted and they all turn over. I have 66 with a siezed engine ( bought for parts as it lived under ( covered!! ) an tree in an orchared for 7 years. The only other siezed 1.4 was one that had sat for 1 year untouched after the head gasket went ( for the third time - head wasnt skimmed after overheating the first time - HG number 1 failed, 2 and 3 )

Im not thinking the engine could be siezed. First, it turned over on the first turn of the key.

However, it is possible for a starter to jam in the 'engaged' position but be impossible to turn? would that explain the engine lock up?

also, the electrics have started to behave a little odd. Im thinking this is inline with a full current draw on the battery as if the starter is 'on'

turning the key from position 1 to 2 ( one is the first click, 2 is where the ignition switches on ), there are no dash lights, the interior light goes off and all electrics are off. Position 3 ( starter position ) is also dead.

after a while ( 1 hr later ) , turning the position 2 ignition lights come on, position 3 is nothing - all electrics off and then the situation resumes as above with interior light on when ignition off.

there are no relays sounding except for when the pos 2 lights the ignition lights ( by this I mean the batt, oil, (P) and (!) that come on as you first turn the ignition.

At the moment Im planning to check all starter connections on sunday, then if still behaving the same, I'll then remove the starter. To see if the engine is still unable to be turned.

if so, that suggests it has seized - which still surprises me.

if thats the case, it'll be some oil down the bores - still debating what sort. something thinner is best -but will need an oil change after ( needs one anyway )

in terms of batteries.

they have AH ratings which is the max amps the battery could deliver over one hour before being fully discharged.

larger capacity engines, diesels, fuel injection, ECU etc all demand higher AH ratings but... in terms of the starter motor, is there any harm one could do generally ( or by me more specifically with the 440 battery ) to a vehicle by using a higher AH battery. How is the ampage drawn by the starter limited if a larger battery is used?

A level physics teacher told us the starting process pretty much shorts the battery hence why all other lights dim as the engine cranks... not sure if thats true

any ideas? thoughts?

cheers guys!!

[Ronnie]

If you put two batteries in series and one of them is kaput, you'll be losing lots of power from the good one. You get the average power from both, and a dead battery can have very high internal resistance which will further reduce the output of the good one..

Before you go any further it would probably be worth taking the suspect battery out of the equation and trying to start with a known good battery on its lonesome.

[shimon340]

hi, yes true but it was impossible to turn the engine on the crank pulley..

[pettaw]

The starter may well have jammed in between the ring gear of the flywheel, because it didn't have enough current to turn it over properly.

First of all I would put a good battery on its own, as Ronnie says, although tbh, a good battery should be able to start a car even with a flat battery connected to it, but its a guaranteed way to flatten it quickly because the bad battery will eat the charge for itself.

The lights all going dim and eventually out completely are all indicators that the battery charge isn't enough to power anything so you need to rule that out before trying to restart the car.

If you get a good current going through the motor and it still sounds as though its stuck, then I would remove the starter.

[Chris_C]

Any chance you can put it in gear and roll it? See if it kicks the startor off? Don't put the battery in series, you'll still be putting 24V through the car even through one is duff, it will be at low current, but you'll still fry things. In parralel, Andy's right, the good battery will charge the duff one, making hte both half good if left (infact, that wouldn't happen, they'd both flatten due to the internal resistance of the battery, but lets ignore that)

Having a bigger AH rating on the car is fine, thats what the new fangled digital camera rechargable batteries you buy are, NiMH from uniross come in 1300mAH, 2000mAH or 2500mAH for AA sizes irc, you can use any of them in a camera that takes AA's, as they are all 1.5V, they will just last longer.

The thing to remember is that voltage is pushed, current is pulled. The battery will always output its voltage, whereas the component attached to the battery will pull the current it requires. Sometimes this is more than the battery can supply, and its at this limiting condition you see the effect of the batteries voltage decreasing. Higher capacity batteries will take longer to charge, but they are under constant charge anyway, so all is good. Beast had a van battery on when I picked it up, the different battery tray in the 360 to the 340 could fit it nicely too!

[shimon340]

hi ronnie, andy and chris

thanks for your answers

thanks andy for the info and to chris for the battery info - nice to have a battery answer from an electrical engineer!!!

nice to get some info on car AH ratings, cheers

I'll try a fully charged battery tonight if the rain stops and will keep you posted

thanks guys!

[Ronnie]

Don't put the battery in series, you'll still be putting 24V through the car even through one is duff, it will be at low current, but you'll still fry things.

Sorry, my mistake - I meant parallel as in normal jump situation

[Chris_C]

Hehe, thought you might have! Just thought I'd make it clear mate!

Shimon, you been out and looked at it yet