Hi Guys, a small question about fuel economy. Should you see the fuel guage needle drop steadily to the reserve (yellow light flashing) from the half full point as you drive these cars (a 360GLT B19E 5 spd) over a distance of about 40 km max? Sorry I can't tell how many km exactly as the speedo doesn't work yet. I know I didn't drive very far around town (to the Volvo wreckers and Volvo dealership for more parts then home again - my regular trip lately). Is it due to the odd shape of the fuel tank and the way the guage reads normally or do I have a fuel system problem?
There are no petrol smells or obvious leaks. The only liquid coming out of the exhaust is water on start up idle (due to damp winter air overnight). The exhaust smells a bit rich at idle but engine pulls strongly and spins up to 4000 rpm gear change easily and smoothly. It doesn't seem to be leaking any fuel into cylinders overnight but is a bit of a hairy dog at idle until warmed for a couple of minutes. What pressure does the injection fuel bar operate at? What can go wrong with the pressure regulator at the return to the tank from the fuel bar?
I noticed that from fuel reserve point, the guage went to almost full with 30 litres added to tank. With a full tank, does the guage stay at the full point for a long time before rapidly exiting stage left? I haven't filled it up yet because if it drinks fuel like this normally then it's staying at the wreckers at the end of my next visit. The only other car I've ever seen the guage move like this on was a V8 at 180 km/hr.
I Drink, Therefore I Am....a B19E
It does sound a bit fast, then again, a full tank holds 57 litres, so your gauge may be a bit off. Running a bid ropey until fully warm is par for the course for these cars I'm afraid.
Erm, how long has it stood for before being brought back into service, I would expect the engine to be a bit ropey for a few weeks but should settle down.
If its a bit petroly at idle you might want to get the tuning checked once its run for a while. A good make of fuel into the tank eg:Shell or whatever your equivalent good juice is there and a few good long journeys preferably with some motorway/freeway where you can open her up and she should be a lot better.
Erm, how long has it stood for before being brought back into service, I would expect the engine to be a bit ropey for a few weeks but should settle down.
If its a bit petroly at idle you might want to get the tuning checked once its run for a while. A good make of fuel into the tank eg:Shell or whatever your equivalent good juice is there and a few good long journeys preferably with some motorway/freeway where you can open her up and she should be a lot better.
Hi Dusty - Mac again.
You can't tell much from how fast the fuel gauge goes down - as with a lot of cars the needle seems to stay reading 'full' for ages and then dives (my old 340 did it, my 940 does it and the wifes 440 does it. I does vary from car to car but is a bit of a feature really.
The only real way (unless you have a consuption test meter) is to brim the tank - drive a couple of hundred miles - and brim the tank again. That way you will get an accurate idea.
360s' certainly arn't the most economical motors but they certainly are not especially heavy on fuel.
You asked about fuel pressures - line pressure should be 250kpa (just over 35psi) and rest pressure a little lower at 230kpa (about 33psi).
The fuel pump should deliver 1.0lt/30secs @250kpa @20c and 12v.
As pettaw says a bit rough during warm up is 'par for the course' but check that your aux air regulator is not gummed up and sticking. It should be about half open when cold (fully open @ -30c) and be fully shut after about 5mins or so.
Let us know how you get on.
Mac
You can't tell much from how fast the fuel gauge goes down - as with a lot of cars the needle seems to stay reading 'full' for ages and then dives (my old 340 did it, my 940 does it and the wifes 440 does it. I does vary from car to car but is a bit of a feature really.
The only real way (unless you have a consuption test meter) is to brim the tank - drive a couple of hundred miles - and brim the tank again. That way you will get an accurate idea.
360s' certainly arn't the most economical motors but they certainly are not especially heavy on fuel.
You asked about fuel pressures - line pressure should be 250kpa (just over 35psi) and rest pressure a little lower at 230kpa (about 33psi).
The fuel pump should deliver 1.0lt/30secs @250kpa @20c and 12v.
As pettaw says a bit rough during warm up is 'par for the course' but check that your aux air regulator is not gummed up and sticking. It should be about half open when cold (fully open @ -30c) and be fully shut after about 5mins or so.
Let us know how you get on.
Mac
Do you know if they were like that even from the factory? It's pretty damn annoying in general day to day useage!mac wrote:As pettaw says a bit rough during warm up is 'par for the course' but check that your aux air regulator is not gummed up and sticking. It should be about half open when cold (fully open @ -30c) and be fully shut after about 5mins or so.
1989 - Volvo 360 GLT
1985 - Volvo 360 GLS
2008 - Volvo S60 SE Lux
1985 - Volvo 360 GLS
2008 - Volvo S60 SE Lux
I reckon they might well have been cos I remember talking to the stealer about these problems and they were talking about it needing a decoke and I reckon they wouldn't have even realized about that if it wasn't a common problem, over rich running at cold start. Of course they never figured a wat to stop it happening in the first place.
The red car does it for about a minute, annoying thing
Eventually I'll probably fit my modded ECU to do the same as I did to my blue car before I MS'd it.
The red car does it for about a minute, annoying thing
Eventually I'll probably fit my modded ECU to do the same as I did to my blue car before I MS'd it.LE - poor warm up.
Hi all,
Were they like it from the factory ?? - well yes and no really. When new the LE jetronic system (whilst cutting edge in the 80s) was still early in the use of electronic control of mixture (yes I know EFI was earlier but that was quite crude in many respects). One area showing less than precise control was during the warm up phase. (still very much better than a manual choke though).
Whilst some 'uneveness' is expected - it should not be so great as to interfere with daily running.
As a car ages - and carbon and oil deposits build up (especially with unleaded fuel) this can act as a 'petrol sponge' (eg. around the inlet valves) leading to unpredictable mixture control - absorbing and releasing fuel. During warm up with generally richer mixture this effect can be quite pronounced on an 'older' car. (hence pettaws' comment about de-coke).
However there are other common problems that will appear with time:-
A sticking auxiliary air regulator - gets gummed up with oily deposits. This generally leads to rich running during warm up since insufficient extra air is delivered. (try flushing out with carb cleaner - it can 'kill or cure'.
Dribbling cold start injector,
Thermal timer hanging on too long,
Coolant temperature sensor 'going off',
All of these can contribute to poor warm up performance when mixture control is more critical. (and you don't have a choke know to play with!!).
In a nutshell - warm up is not sewing machine smooth - but often can be improved.
Mac.
Were they like it from the factory ?? - well yes and no really. When new the LE jetronic system (whilst cutting edge in the 80s) was still early in the use of electronic control of mixture (yes I know EFI was earlier but that was quite crude in many respects). One area showing less than precise control was during the warm up phase. (still very much better than a manual choke though).
Whilst some 'uneveness' is expected - it should not be so great as to interfere with daily running.
As a car ages - and carbon and oil deposits build up (especially with unleaded fuel) this can act as a 'petrol sponge' (eg. around the inlet valves) leading to unpredictable mixture control - absorbing and releasing fuel. During warm up with generally richer mixture this effect can be quite pronounced on an 'older' car. (hence pettaws' comment about de-coke).
However there are other common problems that will appear with time:-
A sticking auxiliary air regulator - gets gummed up with oily deposits. This generally leads to rich running during warm up since insufficient extra air is delivered. (try flushing out with carb cleaner - it can 'kill or cure'.
Dribbling cold start injector,
Thermal timer hanging on too long,
Coolant temperature sensor 'going off',
All of these can contribute to poor warm up performance when mixture control is more critical. (and you don't have a choke know to play with!!).
In a nutshell - warm up is not sewing machine smooth - but often can be improved.
Mac.
Hi All, thanks for the replies yet again. Feel much better with the suggestions posted. I need to catch up with my brother this weekend so a quick 200km flog up the freeway should de-coke the little bugger.
Will check the air induction system. Can it jamb closed (this vehicle hasn't seen any use for possibly up to 12 months now, and certainly no lovin' for a lot longer than that). Should this unit be cleaned while the engines running or tear it out and bench strip it?
From your experience Mac, I'm happy to think it's the guage sender. I'd say the sender unit is out of order with it's operation - maybe another earthing fault as it's just a variable resistor so any extra electrical connection resistance is likely to throw it out. Can this unit be removed from the tank via an underfloor access without dropping the tank? With the car sitting without the tank full for so long it may have a few dodgy winding points on the sender internals. Wont bother doing this if the sender requires gearbox removal to access.
Can the engine safely be run dry of fuel without bleeding problems for the injectors or damage to pump? If it can I might see how far the reserve really is once yellow warning light activates.
Cheers again guys - and just to make you feel better the rain isn't due to stop here for another week, so it's not all topless BBQ's and sunshine, not this week anyway!
Will check the air induction system. Can it jamb closed (this vehicle hasn't seen any use for possibly up to 12 months now, and certainly no lovin' for a lot longer than that). Should this unit be cleaned while the engines running or tear it out and bench strip it?
From your experience Mac, I'm happy to think it's the guage sender. I'd say the sender unit is out of order with it's operation - maybe another earthing fault as it's just a variable resistor so any extra electrical connection resistance is likely to throw it out. Can this unit be removed from the tank via an underfloor access without dropping the tank? With the car sitting without the tank full for so long it may have a few dodgy winding points on the sender internals. Wont bother doing this if the sender requires gearbox removal to access.
Can the engine safely be run dry of fuel without bleeding problems for the injectors or damage to pump? If it can I might see how far the reserve really is once yellow warning light activates.
Cheers again guys - and just to make you feel better the rain isn't due to stop here for another week, so it's not all topless BBQ's and sunshine, not this week anyway!
your continuing struggle with the goat !!
Hi Dusty, Mac again.
Not totally sure what you mean by 'air induction'. If you mean the air mass meter - motor wouldn't run at all if if was jammed (and there isn't much you could do to it anyway). Obviously make sure the air filter is clean and there are no leaves in the filter box. You can also check that the throttle body is not fouled up with oil deposits etc. The 'air induction' system is really just a long plastic pipe with a filter at one end, an air mass meter in the middle and the throttle body at the other end.
Fuel tank sender - yes you can get at it through a cover plate in the boot floor (just lift the carpet). It is a twist fit but in theory you need a special tool to get it out! there isn't much room, but it can be done ok. if you have a go at it :- 1. The variable resistance is in a 'tin can'. 2. Make sure the tank is less thsn half full and 3. Get a new sealing 'o' ring before you start - they have a habit of 'swelling' with petrol contact and often you can't get the old one to fit.!!
To be honest, if your gauge actually works I wouldn't bother - just get used to how it reads on your particular car.
Yep. you can run dry without any bleeding problems - the system self primes. You won't kill the pump - if the engine stops the ECU shuts the pump down.
Distance remaining from 'warning light on' seems to vary from car to car ( the warning system is controlled by the MFU on the back of the instrument cluster). I would think you should get 50km or so.
Let us know how you get on - Mac.
Not totally sure what you mean by 'air induction'. If you mean the air mass meter - motor wouldn't run at all if if was jammed (and there isn't much you could do to it anyway). Obviously make sure the air filter is clean and there are no leaves in the filter box. You can also check that the throttle body is not fouled up with oil deposits etc. The 'air induction' system is really just a long plastic pipe with a filter at one end, an air mass meter in the middle and the throttle body at the other end.
Fuel tank sender - yes you can get at it through a cover plate in the boot floor (just lift the carpet). It is a twist fit but in theory you need a special tool to get it out! there isn't much room, but it can be done ok. if you have a go at it :- 1. The variable resistance is in a 'tin can'. 2. Make sure the tank is less thsn half full and 3. Get a new sealing 'o' ring before you start - they have a habit of 'swelling' with petrol contact and often you can't get the old one to fit.!!
To be honest, if your gauge actually works I wouldn't bother - just get used to how it reads on your particular car.
Yep. you can run dry without any bleeding problems - the system self primes. You won't kill the pump - if the engine stops the ECU shuts the pump down.
Distance remaining from 'warning light on' seems to vary from car to car ( the warning system is controlled by the MFU on the back of the instrument cluster). I would think you should get 50km or so.
Let us know how you get on - Mac.
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petefarrell360
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Indeed, as Mac says, I would just avoid the hassle and accept how the gauge reads, even after you've changed everything, it might read in a similar manner. Both my GLT's have not let the needle drop past the full mark for up to 100 miles, then for the remainder of the tank the needle drops rapidly.
My current GLT is one I'm not keen on trusting with the light. I've not actually run out of fuel, but just before the light even comes on I've had it miss and be down on power on certain roundabouts for a brief second, and on some junctions pulling away. I'm thinking there might be rubbish in the tank, or the change in direction with not a great deal of fuel in the tank is enough to take it away from the outlet. Either way, I try and keep it near the full all the time, just in case.
Pete
My current GLT is one I'm not keen on trusting with the light. I've not actually run out of fuel, but just before the light even comes on I've had it miss and be down on power on certain roundabouts for a brief second, and on some junctions pulling away. I'm thinking there might be rubbish in the tank, or the change in direction with not a great deal of fuel in the tank is enough to take it away from the outlet. Either way, I try and keep it near the full all the time, just in case.
Pete
G reg 360 GLT, G reg 340 GL Variomatic, plus many more..........
My warning light did not work at all, I did solve problem by cleaning and adjusting tank sender thing, needed to bend that arm a bit and now it works fine.
There is part in sender unit that has metal wire wrap around, bit like coil, but this is part of resistor, when there is so little fuel that light should lit needle that is attached to arm is touching area where wire is wrapped very dense, resistance varies how dense wire has been wrapped. So adjusting that arm is easiest solution, imo. Oh yes, I mean that arm that has floater in other end.
I took some pics too, well not very great but maybe gives some idea, currently stored at temp location, until my ISP has time to change some permissions, which seem to take more than 3 months...
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3762.JPG
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3764.JPG
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3766.JPG
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3767.JPG
360 Mk3 -88 dashboard seem to have no flashing lights, they lit constantly, same was with some -83 GLS? I did drove once.
There is part in sender unit that has metal wire wrap around, bit like coil, but this is part of resistor, when there is so little fuel that light should lit needle that is attached to arm is touching area where wire is wrapped very dense, resistance varies how dense wire has been wrapped. So adjusting that arm is easiest solution, imo. Oh yes, I mean that arm that has floater in other end.
I took some pics too, well not very great but maybe gives some idea, currently stored at temp location, until my ISP has time to change some permissions, which seem to take more than 3 months...
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3762.JPG
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3764.JPG
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3766.JPG
http://www.janiervast.com/gallery.bk/g2 ... G_3767.JPG
360 Mk3 -88 dashboard seem to have no flashing lights, they lit constantly, same was with some -83 GLS? I did drove once.
Volvo 360GL -88 -under restoration-
Volvo 343DL vario -81 -running-
Volvo 240 Diesel -83 -undecided-
Citroen ZX Dturbo -97 -daily-
Volvo 343DL vario -81 -running-
Volvo 240 Diesel -83 -undecided-
Citroen ZX Dturbo -97 -daily-