Uprated clutch to fit 1.4 340? (GTT conversion) Info...

Post by **Stavros** » 15 Oct 2006 09:47 am

As per title, whats the crack? What fits? Ive searched and found no proper info, jus lots of rumour etc.

Basically ive been looking at 1.4 340s down the scrappy and (knowing GT Turbos and tuning them like the back of my hand) notice that its all piece of piss to get a GTT lump in and running.
The manifold/turbo/clearance issue is nothing worth worrying about IMO, youl be doing just as much custom work getting other bits in anyhow.

The bellhousing seems to have the suitable crank sensor like on GTTs (looks like the same one to me).

The basic head and block casting is the same (unless im seeing things, and im sure im not).

Prop is meant to be not strong enough, but bothered, stronger one can be made.

Gearbox (4spd i guess) and prop seem to be vaugely capable of taking the power.

But CLUTCH, what the hell fits? Standard wont be capable, so what uprated options do I have?

Also, peoples mentioned the 1.7 bellhousing? Why? Why will that help me? It even fit?

(PS, please dont do like every other post ive seen on here where you all go "put in a 1.7, GTT engines are crap!" as I know GTT engines, and thats whats going in, well, as soon as you tell me what the crack is with the clutch!)

Cheers

Post by **Chris_C** » 15 Oct 2006 01:43 pm

Hehe, a man who knows his mind! Fair game to you, not many have tried (I know of one whose joined here a month or three ago) His name is Frits, and his login is Frits... where ... is something I can't remember, but I think it's 340. I was really tempted to do the same conversion, and only got swayed by the feeling that it''d be easier to get a 1.7T engine that hadn't been ragged. Soon find out whether that's the case or not, or if I'm rebuilding it whether it actually mattered

There are a couple of guys who have put a renault alpine engine in to a 300, and where making soem big power, but thats not documented here, some of the guys who frequent 300power might know who they are though.

Sorry thats not answering your original question, but hopefully Frits can tell you what he's done. He has started a thread in General Discussion about his work, with lots of pics too.

Post by **Fuse** » 15 Oct 2006 04:28 pm

There are sintered stock size clutch plates available from Sachs for 300-series. Stiff plates or with springs, both are available. Should handle more power than the stock plate.

You can also use clutch kit from 400-series turbo, EXCEPT the plate. Other parts will fit but you need a 300-series plate. This is what I've heard.

For Volvo engine models, also 228mm clutches from VW Golf will fit and it works good Sachs turbo pressure plate. Sintered and standard plates available.

Post by **Stavros** » 15 Oct 2006 05:10 pm

cheers for replys, much appreciated.

so by sounds of it i can use standard 340 1.4 cover and flywheel and an uprated sachs plate?

anyone know any part numbers, as ill need to ask a UK sachs supplier and im damn sure they wont know what im on abnout if i just ask them for an uprated plate for a 1.4 340!

its a bit of a shame im not SURE the crank sensor (and the readings it picks up off the flywheel) is compatible with the GTT ign ECU, but it sure looks identical...

Worst comes to worst im sure could leave the stocko crapo 1.4 ign ECU plugged in an use a MicroDynamics boost retart module for that bit anyhow...

I got a GTT flywheel etc if the pickups different, but then the clutch etc might all be wrong, dunno, not got that far yet...

Any other help info is appreciated, ive read the other threads, but TBH im not 100% on the meaning of some stuff, lol

Post by **5lab** » 15 Oct 2006 06:45 pm

couldnt you just swap the crank sensor with the one from a gtt??

the clutch shoulnt be a problem.. the prop might well be - a bit notorious for failures. the gearbox (5speed) should be fine to the north side of 250bhp, but the prop sometimes dies on stock power

Post by **Fuse** » 15 Oct 2006 06:56 pm

Stavros wrote:cheers for replys, much appreciated.

so by sounds of it i can use standard 340 1.4 cover and flywheel and an uprated sachs plate?

Yeah that would work.

Part numbers can be found here

http://demo.locotech.fi/usparts/sendfile.php?fileid=31

Post by **Stavros** » 16 Oct 2006 09:41 am

5lab wrote:couldnt you just swap the crank sensor with the one from a gtt??

the clutch shoulnt be a problem.. the prop might well be - a bit notorious for failures. the gearbox (5speed) should be fine to the north side of 250bhp, but the prop sometimes dies on stock power

crank senk sensor could be swapped, but think its the same, im just not SURE it picks up in the same way.

Its sat at TDC just like on a GTT, i just dont know if it picks up a single marker on a Volvo or a GTT or multiple ones (i simply cant remember on the GTT, its been a while, and ive not gone and looked at the GTT engine i have).
Odds are it picks up on a single marker like almost all, but stranger things have happened and just hoping it does can be an expensive mistake to make, lol.

Anyone know the above one for sure? Particularly the 340.

The sachs list is appreciated, cheers Fuse! The only one id seen previously was written in, umm, i dunno, wasnt english tho!

Post by **Ali** » 16 Oct 2006 11:30 am

Ah good to see you've signed up, really hope you go ahead with this as plenty have talked about it (myself included) and never gone ahead. With your knowledge of the R5s should be nice n easy for you! I suppose even if the sensor is different your not going to do any damage by trying to start it and find out it is wrong, make it the next feature car

lol

Post by **5lab** » 16 Oct 2006 11:49 am

from memory, the haynes suggested a single marker in the 340, but its not always reliable

Post by **Stavros** » 16 Oct 2006 12:52 pm

Ali wrote:Ah good to see you've signed up, really hope you go ahead with this as plenty have talked about it (myself included) and never gone ahead. With your knowledge of the R5s should be nice n easy for you! I suppose even if the sensor is different your not going to do any damage by trying to start it and find out it is wrong, make it the next feature car lol

Hiya mate. in all honesty, it looks shockingly easy, but can see it being a LOT harder if you dont know GTTs quite so well.
The sensor thing wont do any harm, but it simply wont work, which would mean minor ballache while taking bits back off and so on.
TBH with heater box bonned im fairly convinced manifold would be fine once moved heater pipes, but TBH there that much room in the bay (once certain crap was binned off) id prefer not to mount it there, just to make my life easier when fixing stuff etc!

5lab wrote:from memory, the haynes suggested a single marker in the 340, but its not always reliable

yeah, i imagine it is, as itd make a lot of sense, but like you say, haynes manuals arnt foolproof!

Another question, a bit more bizzare tho...
Did any 1.4s or 1.7s come with aircon? and if so, how was it mounted? Did it run direct off the crank, and do all models have the suitable crank pulley, just with nothing running off that part of it? (like on 200SXs with no A/C etc etc)

Post by **Chris_C** » 16 Oct 2006 01:00 pm

1.4's did (only quite early ones) but rare as hell. If you want the pully, you'll not find it on a 300, but try looking on a R5 campus

I think thats the one I found with Pas and a double pulley

Post by **mac** » 16 Oct 2006 01:01 pm

Just a quick 'oar' in.

The B14 and B172 flywheels have a 40 'tooth' sensor ring with 2 'double width' teeth at 180degs to each other. The flywheel sensor is of the 'variable reluctance' type (coil wound around permanant magnet) which produces an induced voltage pulse dependant on the varying air gap to the toothed sensor ring. The B19/200 is essentially similar but the flywheel has machined holes rather than a fitted fing.

As with all electronic ignition systems it is nescessary to trace the angular position of the crankshaft and tracing such requires the ECU to be supplied with two signals and broadly there are two main ways of achieving this - either the absolute angle measurement system or the angular speed measurement system - the 300 series employs the latter. With this system also there are two main versions - one employing 2 sensors and a single reference point, and the version that Renix uses for the 300 - ie. a single sensor and two reference points.

The single sensor provides a simple advance reference and rotational speed is determined by timing (time measurement - not ignition timing) signal variations produced by the two reference points. The disadvantage of such a simple system is low accuracy at low rotational speed. the answer is to provide (in the 300s case) a sensor 'target' of 44 teeth (or holes) with 2 teeth missing every 180deg. (ie. 40 teeth). This arrangement provides an absolute datum position at 90deg to BTDC. The system also allows for an 8deg resolution which the ECU further reduces by 8 to provide a timing resolution of 1.023deg. (the same as having a 352 tooth sensor ring).

I'm not sure if Haynes refer to a single 'marker' but if the do they are as accurate as when they (as they definitely do) talk of sensing 'special magnetic segments' in the flywheel - this is of course utter tosh!!

I don't know which system the GTT uses but if it only has one sensor then the flywheel must have two datums and the sensor itself is almost certainly the same.

As usual suffering the verbal runs - Mac.

Post by **Stavros** » 16 Oct 2006 02:13 pm

mac wrote:I don't know which system the GTT uses but if it only has one sensor then the flywheel must have two datums and the sensor itself is almost certainly the same.

Yup, 101% only has one sensor, sits in same place as on a 340

Well there you go, thats one thing solved, straight swap then

Post by **big_wig_074** » 16 Oct 2006 03:12 pm

SWEET!lets get it on then steve! have priced up the engine etc.....all looking good so far!

Post by **pettaw** » 16 Oct 2006 07:37 pm

Hmm. looked at a R5 GTT engine whilst I was away. All the engine block will bolt straight in in all probability, and would work fine. However, the turbo and manifolds will need a lot of modding, including all the pipework and the intercooler, cos basically its all in the wrong place as the R5 engine mounts transversely in the R5 and would mount longditunally in the Volvo.