car car car!

[A M R]

how the hell did you get insurance on a r5 gtt at the age of 18??? must have been extortionate...

its hard to find your limits or even to know them. i still have no idea of what my limits are. i have driven cars quite hard to the point of where they understeer around corners, but i can still control it - all that has taught me is the limit of the car, not my own.

from my experiences, personal limits are endless, only the cars limit matters. after a while you get used to a car and you learn how hard you can drive it, but i have not yet been in a situation where i have not known how to control the car.

i watch racing vids a lot, and i think this helps with driving technique. i also play live for speed, this has helped me a lot in understanding what a fwd car will do when pushed hard, and from theses two, i have learnt how to drive to the cars limit.

maybe im being naive, but is there actually a physical limit for a persons ability? the only way i can imagine there to be one is if the person lacks in knowlege and understanding about cars...

any good way of finding your limits? lol

sorry im just rambling on now

[Stavros]

mate, if it was only CAR limits that mattered we would all be as good as each other in a car, when if fact thats massivley different.

if anything car limits are nothing, its not what you drive, its how you drive it. if you truly believe the opposite is remotley true your heading for a big fall!

if that was true any one could jump in the ferrari F1 car and be exactly as fast as schuey or so on

driftings a good example too. get 2 people, your average joe, and one of the worlds top drifters.
give your average joe THE best drift car in the world, and give the top drifter a volvo 360 with a welded diff.
ill put good money the drifter totally annihalates the other guy, even tho he has a shite car.

if anything you getting to where the car begins to understeer might show it is possible to be faster than that in the same car, as changing your driving style could maybe stop it understeering etc etc.

anyhow...

yeah, wasnt cheap insuring my GTT, was 1500quid TPFT. Some companies were asking 5k+, but im good at knocking companies down in price.
same way i insured a 3door Cosworth at 20.

[petefarrell360]

Just PM'd you AMR. Firstly, sorry for not replying, as Chris says, I have been somewhat busy, too many other things jumping in. The last PM sent Sat night I read at silly o'clock, then the PC went haywire and I fell asleep infront of it once I'd got it stable and forgot all about replying!

Either way, I've not wanted to mess you about, and I said that from the start, but I've not had time to get to the Stealership to get the parts to finish the car off properly, or had the time to do it. I've known of other cars which I've offered you the opportunity of too!

Anyway, see how you go, that 3 door deserves saving, I echo SteveP, don't stack it!

With regards to finding limits, if you find your limits on the public road, you're probably going to end up crashing, or if you're very lucky, needing a change of underwear. Once you get near the limit, you're often into unchartered territory, due to no two sets of variables being the same, ie the road surface, then the weather, be it damp, dry, foggy, and of course how tight the bend is etc.

With regards to understeer, I could achieve understeer, but I'm creating it by turning too sharpy and quickly at speed, instead I can take the corner far quicker by creating the right approach and keeping things smooth. Stavros is spot on, give two drivers the same car, one being an expert, the other Joe public and even then, from the same basis, you'll see differences.

Pete

[Carl]

how the hell did you get insurance on a r5 gtt at the age of 18??? must have been extortionate...

its hard to find your limits or even to know them. i still have no idea of what my limits are. i have driven cars quite hard to the point of where they understeer around corners, but i can still control it - all that has taught me is the limit of the car, not my own.

from my experiences, personal limits are endless, only the cars limit matters. after a while you get used to a car and you learn how hard you can drive it, but i have not yet been in a situation where i have not known how to control the car.

i watch racing vids a lot, and i think this helps with driving technique. i also play live for speed, this has helped me a lot in understanding what a fwd car will do when pushed hard, and from theses two, i have learnt how to drive to the cars limit.

maybe im being naive, but is there actually a physical limit for a persons ability? the only way i can imagine there to be one is if the person lacks in knowlege and understanding about cars...

any good way of finding your limits? lol

sorry im just rambling on now

Mate, you're gonna end up having a massive stack with that attitude! Playing computer games and watching the TV will not help you on the road!!

And understeer is the most basic of hooligan antics - you either keep your foot in and keep steering or lift off. Which is why FWD cars are safer for your average joe public because if things start going wrong you instinctively lift off and this generally sorts things out. RWD is a completely different kettle of fish - if you lose control you have to react straightaway or you'll be in all sorts of trouble!!!

And don't think I'm being ageist, because I'm only 25, but I've owned and driven a fair number of cars (FWD, RWD, 4WD, front engined and mid engined) so have a bit of exeprience, but of course once upon a time I didn't. I had a similar attitude to yours and it ended in tears!! So just be careful! Especially with that very rare 360 if you get it.

I was in fact looking at that one too last night, as it's only about an hour away from me. If you're going for it I'll leave it though.

[foggyjames]

Nice motor that. Like they said, if you get it...don't crash it

It's more mental than physical limits, I think. The thing which still catches me out is if I've got someone I'm trying to stick with...it's easy to lose perspective if you start judging your 'markers' relative to the other car, rather than features of the road, etc. If that car happens to be something a bit sporty, and you're in a stock 300...it can get a touch hairy!

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think most young drivers fail to appriciate how things change when the weather is bad, and when you get into the twisties. Notice how when someone in a Saxo stacks it into a tree, killing themselves and four of their schoolmates, it's almost always on a bend, often in the wet.

Knowing when and where to use speed is the way forward. Speed doesn't kill...stopping too quickly does If in doubt, work it out somewhere you'll not hit anything...like an airfield!

cheers

James

[jtbo]

Live for Speed actually will teach somewhat lot of vehicle dynamics, but still only thing it does is to speed up process of learning as you still need to learn it in real car to really understand how things work out.

Testing limits on public road indeed is getting you killed, someone else killed or just ridiculous amount of Gazos and ultra low speed limits.

Get into autocross events, or what those are called at your place, that teaches you car control and you will see your speed there too, listen stupid old farts even they (us?) are conservative morons that are just trying to spoil all fun, there usually is some experience behind what they say, you see you are not first one that likes fast driving and thinks car limits not driver...

When you understand vehicle dynamics well, you will see that you are wrong, it is always driver, there is almost always way to handle car better, make better time.

Now let's discuss bit about sim racing, even some old guys here don't feel it has any connection to real life driving...

Tell me, what is your best time in Blackwood GP track and what wheel you are using?

[A M R]

i use an analogue game pad and my best time with an xrt is 1.24.90 on blackwood.

i know its possible to get a better time, but i havent managed it.

i used to be on blackwood a lot when i had demo, but since i got s2, i have spent most of my time at one of the 'caribbean cruise' servers by clc. quite fun and theres no other server like it.

come along some time if you have s2. search for my username (A M R) on lfsworld.net to see if im on there - sort the servers by track (FE gold) and you will find all the servers that use that track and its a lot easier to search through a smaller list.

[jtbo]

With gamepad you will miss few essential things and Live for speed is not helping nearly as well with your driving, only with proper wheel setup you will get it well.

But surely it will give tips what is defineatly no no and what is good thing to do in different situations, but don't be fooled, you won't learn where limits are or how fast/slow things happen, those are completely different in real life.

Autocross is good there as you need to control car really well, you will learn what will happen at limit and over limit. If nothing do at least few basic tricks at empty parking lot, 90 degree hand brake turn and 180 degree hand brake turn, reverse 90 degree turn and reverse 180 degree turn. With those you will get more familiar how real world handling differs from game and you will get bit more feeling to it than when watching videos, it will help you big time later and if ever you happen to evaluate things wrong.

In LFS there is just too much time to react, that is biggest problem there, imo.
RAC is quite good actually, it has most real feeling, imo.

I think my record is 1:25.3x at Blackwood with XRT, but I'm using wheel that turns 900 degrees and I'm using all that, also I'm not using world record setups that utilizes bugs in various areas to gain unrealistic performance, could go faster, but I prefer realism

But try sometimes those tricks at parking lot with real car and tell how it felt and what new you did learn if any?

[V6 Man]

I've found that 'driving' games on PC's, Playstations and the ilk are useless at giving you a feel for real life driving. Maybe it's the fact that being older than most of you lot meant that I grew up without driving games and only had access to them after I learned to drive, but I completely useless at them. Computers etc do not give you any 'feel' and so you are lacking in so many sensory inputs that you get when actually driving. I'm sure that many accidents are caused by people using visual guides only as this is what the game gives them and ignoring the physical sensations through the seat/pedals/steering etc.

Remember, crashes are caused by the driver running out of ability, not the car. A good driver will know his cars' limits and stay within them. Exceeding a cras' limits means you have exceeded your own.

[IvanS.]

Mate i do not want you to finish like my best friend who live after he felt off the bike....I've seen enough...That was the first time i was scared to death.

It's not that you shouldn't explore limits, but not with the things that can kill you in real life. Life is one, respect it.

I know my limits, even when i want to take over them i got scared of what's next ?
Will i die, get hurt, injured, finish in hospital like my best friend, stay in wheel chair for the rest of my life ??
No, i do not want that, and no one else wants that...and that's why I'm scared to go even to the limit, not mentioning above it.

Simulations and videos can help you in some way ( we discussed this on another topic....but i couldn't find it ) , but i do not want anyone to finish like this :

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u97/ ... 0-4-04.jpg

Do not play with stuff that may kill you. You know they can.

You're going to get nice Volvo and rare one. Enjoy in it, not destroy it.

Cheers.

[jtbo]

I've found that 'driving' games on PC's, Playstations and the ilk are useless at giving you a feel for real life driving. Maybe it's the fact that being older than most of you lot meant that I grew up without driving games and only had access to them after I learned to drive, but I completely useless at them. Computers etc do not give you any 'feel' and so you are lacking in so many sensory inputs that you get when actually driving. I'm sure that many accidents are caused by people using visual guides only as this is what the game gives them and ignoring the physical sensations through the seat/pedals/steering etc.

Remember, crashes are caused by the driver running out of ability, not the car. A good driver will know his cars' limits and stay within them. Exceeding a cras' limits means you have exceeded your own.

Most of driving games are also utterly crap. There is no single driving game for any console that is even closely realistic.

I can say that only Live For Speed has many things right, most of them don't have not even single thing right about car behaviour.
In LFS there is currently one guy that has designed his own car and is looking to put it to production and he looks forward to improve his driving with LFS. He is not used to drive any driving games and it is interesting to follow his progress. http://www.dpcars.net/

Thing is, there are games and there are sims, LFS is sim and without testing it with proper controllers one don't have idea about how good or bad those are today.

Sure there is lot of things missing that you get normally, but there are things you can learn from it even you would be racers, but defineatly when you are beginner.

However I would say you learn some, but to put in to practise you need to learn it in real car, doing real mistakes, sim will only help in this learning progress, so hardly useless in that sense.

Edit: Ivan is very right, there are places to test limits and roads are not those, crashing 40Mph is very likely lethal in older cars, or at least you will spend long time in hospital. Those damn things just are fragile. Also others on road, too many things that can change situation and cause disaster even you would maintain control without that granny jumping front of your car from bushes or something like that.

So even one can learn control it is not that he should measure his abilities out of window by driving at limit or even near limit on public roads. Learning control is one thing but imo important is also to loose control and understand how much power there is in moving 900kg metal thing, that should be done in environment where it is not likely to end badly and in real car, there is differences in sims and real world, even sim can prepare to it, it won't make one ready.

[Stavros]

you can play driving games and watch how to drive/drift DVDs for years on end and still not improve your driving even remotely as much as you would by a single day at a trackday or drift practice day.

can think you can drive all you like, but with others to compare yourself to youd see the reality.

but even then, people always try blame their cars.

its never the cars, the cars may not help, but unless you the best driver in the world, its not the cars fault, its your own.

[A M R]

thats the thing, i dont know my own limits. everytime i have got into a bit of trouble, i have managed to control it. i have no idea how far my level of control is, and that is what i want to find out.

trackdays are possibly the safest way of doing this, but even this cant teach you your limits. i went balls out at outdoor go karting and i survived that and i think i drove excellent, only my stamina ran out. i had the thing at its limit on every corner and the g forces were incredible (especially when your sat in a kart that the seat is too big for you, the straps dont hold you in properly, the helmet is too big and falls over your eyes so you cant see, and the foam pad on the wheel falls off after extremely hard driving). i still did not find my limit after that karting.

as far as im concerned, i have no limits (im not being stupid, its only because i dont know them). its possible to learn the car's limits with due time, but a persons limits could take a whole lifetime to learn, and then some...

is there any proper way of finding out how far my ability to control a car stretches?

from this i hope you can see why i think im invincible

[jtbo]

thats the thing, i dont know my own limits. everytime i have got into a bit of trouble, i have managed to control it. i have no idea how far my level of control is, and that is what i want to find out.

trackdays are possibly the safest way of doing this, but even this cant teach you your limits. i went balls out at outdoor go karting and i survived that and i think i drove excellent, only my stamina ran out. i had the thing at its limit on every corner and the g forces were incredible (especially when your sat in a kart that the seat is too big for you, the straps dont hold you in properly, the helmet is too big and falls over your eyes so you cant see, and the foam pad on the wheel falls off after extremely hard driving). i still did not find my limit after that karting.

as far as im concerned, i have no limits (im not being stupid, its only because i dont know them). its possible to learn the car's limits with due time, but a persons limits could take a whole lifetime to learn, and then some...

is there any proper way of finding out how far my ability to control a car stretches?

from this i hope you can see why i think im invincible

What was lap record of that karting track and did you beat it?

If not, you were not at the limit, sorry

Safest way, autocrossing, imo. Also not very expensive either and does not require a much. Some car clubs might arrange, those, don't know how it is in there, but I know here are members 'in scene' that might know where to start etc.

[IvanS.]

Believe me you don't want to know them, or you'll learn the hard way ( usually crash, get injured ) and then you'll get it. The hard way always hurts.

Just do what you think is safe. But your car may not keep up to your limits. You may blow the engine, or something similar.

it depends if you sat in real carting ( 250 cc with lot of hp ), and BTW car is not so stable and accurate as carting. You can't compare those two. Nothings the same. Only that you can get injured.

Yes there is a way to learn how far you can control a car...but i can't guarantee that you won't get rolled over or crash...
Do a drifting on open space. you'll see it's not that simple. then pour some water on the road and see the difference.

Your thinking reminds me of driving the bicycle. My dad learned me to keep the balance by letting me on the veeeery long slope.....first i couldn't keep it balanced and i crashed heavily. I still got the scar from that past. Than i didn't want to ride a bike for some time, but second time i crashed also cose tyre got flat by glass. I crashed at hi speed and got my self rolling on the road with many injures. Third time i succeeded. Hard way is the hardest.

Now i know my bike and i do lot of stuff on it, know its behaviour and can control it...until i crash again and see that i made wrong move. I'm one of those who learned to ride the bike without help-side wheels ( what can i do, i was ( and still i'm ) addicted to bicycles.