The old fart has a gripe.

[mac]

Mornin' all, This will almost certainly sound like an old fart being patronising - BUT it is not intended to be and this is NOT aimed at anyone in particular (honest). Most of you know that I am a little older than the average teenager and I have been 'araand motuhs' all my life.

In various threads recently a few issues have arisen that I believe are worthy of comment (in general).

Modifying cars - At the end of the day 'all things are possible' but are not necessarily sensible. When you modify a vehicle (for whatever reason) there is often no 'right way' - there is often several ways to achieve the same aims.
Much is argued about carbs verses fuel injection. Ultimately a carb set up will 'probably' produce more power than FI, but FI is much more precise in fuelling control. BOTH systems are equally open to 'abuse by ignorance' - and can result in equally expensive problems.

It is very fashionable to modify, tune and 'compete' with a car (be it drifting, or sound offs, or just being a pain in the arse to us oldies). What is NOT fashionable is (for some people) to listen to 'those who know'. It is easy to accept the 'bar room' experts advice about what can or should be done - but do find out what the 'expert' is expert at at first!

Please - whatever you do to your cars - do it properly (in engineering terms). When people like Foggy or Pettaw (and others) give advise - listen.

When you increase engine power remember the rest of the vehicle - a lower powered but better handling and braking car will always win over sheer grunt alone (in most cases except the drag strip).

I do get a little nervous when people (again no one targetted) who have yet to pass their driving tests talk of major engine mods. Passing a test and controlling a performance car are very very different things indeed (however invulnerable the pre twenties feel). Please get a little experience on the road first before running 9s on the high street.

Insurance - expensive, unrealistic, penalising the young, inflexible, YES - but also a fact of life. Mod your car even slightly without telling them and you won't have cover - FACT! (insurance companies have 'how to avoid paying claims' departments these days). The overall cost of people without insurance gets loaded on to those who do pay - ie. ME - and that makes a grumpy old fart even more grumpy (not very pretty).

Not only have I been around a long time I was also young once. (I was hanging mods (remember them) over the sea wall at Margate in '68' when I was a biker), and I was dumping V8s into custom vans in the 70s - so 'been there, done that, got several 'T' shirts' But whatever I did I did legally, and correctly from an engineering point of view. I survived - please make sure you do too.


Moan over - God I must be in a bad mood today - Mac.

[antiekeradio]

hey man, you might want to think about starting a regular collumn with this stuff

classic

[Fuse]

Very good points!

Especially the part "whatever you do to your cars - do it properly." I hate it when people do quick fixes etc.. and leave them that way, when giving it a bit more thought, most things could have been done much better with the same effort.

Pretty much the first year of owning my GLT, I spent fixing and taking out all quick fixes previous owner had done. I just can't understand most things which were done, I mean wiring "insulated" with masking tape, crappy connections, zipties etc... I think most of those "fixes" had taken more time than it would have taken to do it properly.

About the insurance, I'm glad I live in Finland. We have quite different insurance policy, insurance companies don't care what you do with your car.

Engine size, year model, car model and the city you live in are basic four things which affect on the insurance (of course safety equipments etc.. and in some cases the age of the owner affect also but those four mentioned are the main things) but if you add turbos and such, those won't affect. Guys at MOT are only who care and of course the police.

Of course if you crash your car, normal insurance doesn't cover the mods, so if you have spent thousands in your 500€ car, they will pay you for the 500€ car. There are insurances available which cover the "extra" stuff also though, but those are quite expensive..

You don't have to insure your car either if you don't want but, so called "traffic insurance" is mandatory. It covers the losses of the innocent party. So if you ram your car in to someone's car, your traffic insurance covers the losses of the innocent person, but doesn't pay you anything for your losses.

Owner's age also doesn't affect much on the insurance, we have a so called bonus system. When you get your car insured, you have 0% bonus and pay the full price every year. In time you gain bonus if you haven't had any accidents and payments get smaller. For example my father has something like 70% bonuses so he pays 30% of what I pay.

[redline]

yo Mac dude ,

more power to us oldies I totally agree with all you said .

having built many an anglia /cortina with stage 3 lumps or even V6's in the good old days I know where you are coming from ,

My mates used to think that I was soft because, before I even opened the bonnet to change a lump ,I would upgrade the brakes and suspension first ,

They soon changed there minds when my project was completed and all they could see were my tail lights and all they could taste was my exhaust.

I have lost way to many friends in car crashes to take a chance with a quick fit bodges .

I feel sorry for the younguns today we never broke the law merely bent it a bit but it do's seem the powers to be are always on there case,

I got pulled over by the Fuzz once (very painful ) It was a transit van full and they saw me come off a roundabout in my stage 3 1600E mk2 and couldent believe I was getting wheel spin in third gear ,

rather than give me a bollicking they just wanted to have a look under the bonnet to see what I was running and ask about the spec,( twin 40's full janspeed system 1760 rebore on the 711m block,duplex timing gear ,stage 3 head ,balanced and lightened flywheel usual stuff) they shook my hand and congratulated me on a job well done and then left with smiles on there faces nearly as broad as mine , now adays they would just as likely nick you coz your stereos too loud.

mod all you like and in whatever style you like, but for your own sake and the sake of your friends and family , stay safe and stay legal

[sven360]

Well I'm in no man's land too young to be considered old(well in my opinion) too old to be called young( that's a definate )

Good advise from the older members but whether it's heeded is another matter.

Quite often this applies "young,dumb and full of c*m !"

Hopefully those youngun's who read this thread might realise they aren't all bulletproof and even a properly engineered vehicle can cause catastrophic results in the wrong hands.

Cobbling up any old thing to go fast in a straightline without being able to stop,corner etc isn't really motoring in my eyes.

Even if this thread makes people take a step back and think more about any mod thay are contemplating it's been worthwhile.

[Carl]

Hopefully those youngun's who read this thread might realise they aren't all bulletproof

Yep, been there done that, and rolled the car. Scared the sh1t out of me, and injured my best mate (only very minor). And of course wrecked my pride and joy.

I still enjoy a spirited drive, but now I understand how a car will react to what I do and to how the road changes and that has made me a better driver - experience is the key to life, not just driving and mod'ing but to everything!! Listen and learn kids

[jtbo]

Luckily today there is possibility to take car to track and learn how car handles at limit and beyond limit too, hopefully everyone who likes from speed take opportunity and go to track, it will teach how car has lot of mass and it is not always doing what you want, sometimes there is just too much speed.

It should be noted that car taken to track have to be such that you dare to put to limit and over too, it is not useful if you just drive around track and tires just start to make noise, you really have to go faster until learning will happen.

Also whatever info you get from anywhere, make sure you get second opinion from someone else, there is weird believes, some are too cautious some are not enough, but to get truth that works in your case you better check everything from other source, even it may feel stupid.
You see truth is not one, but many, there can be 2 guys saying different things and both can be right.

[petefarrell360]

Prepared a nice long post to this thread covering many of the points mentioned, accidentally hit back on the mouse shortcut button then clicked submit a split second later, thus losing said post, gone, no way of recovering it. D'oh! So, basically, yep agree with all that's been said above!

Simple servicing and maintenance needs to come before modifying a car anyway, and simple things are often overlooked, and people scrimp and save to mod, then don't buy decent tyres etc, which are so important.

Pete

[SteveP]

people scrimp and save to mod, then don't buy decent tyres etc, which are so important.

I didn't think we were setting people out as examples? You may as well replace 'people' with 'ali'

Valid post mac, not sure how relevant it is because it seems most of us agree - but good to raise it I guess.

[petefarrell360]

LOL, well, I hadn't thought of Ali's tyres, but then they are getting worn away for drifting, so mega expensive tyres aren't gonna be cost effective!
Pete

[classicswede]

Pete I had writen a very long reply only to loose it aswell!!


There is often bad advise around form a)your mate b)the internet and c)the so called expert.

The most common example I can think of with this is a ported and polished head. The porting is fine but the ports af a cylinder head should not be polished - they should only be ground smooth.
Most of the so called experts do actualy polish the ports which is only any use if you want to display the head on the mantle peice!

It is not easy to get the wright advise but as regards to a 300 you should find it hear. Be sensible as to what modifications you try and under take.


Also dont let the old folk tell you in there day ppl did it right because they did not. The 60's and 70's were a disaster in customizing cars.
The common trick was to drop a rover V8 or jag V12 into a ford pop - job done (the better ones also changed the rear axle at the same time rather than later) It was very common for these cars to be unable to stop chassis snap and axles fall off. This era was a time of poly filler and pop rivets.
Over the years the standards of hot rods has risen extreamly high and the experts put a real package together.

When you make a modification you need to consider and address the extra forces you may to tranmitting to else where of the car.

I hope I've got my point over - please keep in mind these are only general comments so dont take it personaly.

[redline]

polly filler and pop rivets , huh I'll have you know we used self tappers and bean cans for all our repairs when I was a lad ,

I know what you mean Dai but to be totally honest I only ever used lead filler as a friend was an expert in this field.

I tapped the back of my mates morris minor van once and the whole back valance and near side wing fell away to reveal cardboard covered with a good two inches of p 38 filler

[jtbo]

Polished ports is not good because gas like to condense to walls, this is specially issue with carb setup where air/gas mixture travels from intake manifold to intake port to valve so it takes long way and it is easier to get these problems, same with single point injection.

In fuel injection (that is in our cars) you inject fuel close to valve so it has not so big meaning, but in our engines there is sure some distance from injector to valve and that area might get some condensing. With K-Jetronic there is no harm done even port is polished.

You get better airflow with polishing, as there is no turbulence in walls that effectively reduce usable diameter of port, reducing airflow, but negative effect is this condensing, so there is no only one right answer to this, it depends from many things.

I would say that don't eat everything without biting, there is so much of beliefs in car stuff that may come from one bad experience in certain case or from 'as we always have done this way' and 'this has always worked', that is very conservative way of doing things, ok safe way and easy solution, but I would like to say that always research where things are based on, why it is so, then think is there alternative, there usually is much more efficient ways of doing things that are often much cheaper too.

And always, always replace your fuel hoses, everyone of them as even they look old, if they are fabric covered they are leaking and before you do any mods, put new hoses to car.

[foggyjames]

I think such things are a two way street...the old part of me gets grumpy when the arrogance of youth takes over, and the youth part of me gets grumpy when the old beardies (I use the term affectionately to refer to convervative VOC members...NOT Mac! ) look down their noses when the young want to go their own way. I'm 22, so pretty much right in no man's land between being an arrogant youth and rapidly descending into old-fartdom

I'd appeal to those of us (myself included) who don't necessarily agree with some of the things our more 'enthusiastic' members might propose to avoid running the risk of driving these guys away....while at the same time suggesting that those who are potentially guilty of being 'arrogant youths' (myself definitely included!) to respectfully acknowledge why people with experience want to pass this knowledge on - frustrated at the prospect of seeing the inexperienced waste their time on things we 'know' won't work....but at the same time knowing that there's no substitute for making mistakes and finding it out for yourself the hard way.

Ultimately, my only true request is that no-one overstretches themselves. A popular contributor on Turbobricks was killed in a car accident in 2002. Let's not even go there - don't do it to yourself and those who care for you, and please don't leave us with the feeling that we might have helped you into an early grave! If in doubt, follow SteveP's fine example, and drive a slow car.

cheers

James

[SteveP]

If in doubt, follow SteveP's fine example, and drive a slow car.