360 A/C - R12 to R134a conversion

[trabitom99]

This week, I removed the air conditioning system from a pretty rusty MkIII GLT. It's an aftermarket system (from Deltamil Nederland), so removal was fairly straightforward, although putting it all back together again will be a bit fiddly!

The system was running on the ozone-friendly R134a gas before it was bled a few months ago, but judging by the "R12" inscription on compressor and hoses, it started life as an R12 system.

Here's a quick overview of the system:

Condensor, filter / drier and aux fan (note the non-standard location of the drier - fitted to the condensor with tie wraps!):


... with a close-up of the part no, and the dimensions (maybe interesting for someone?)

Compressor with PAS mounting bracket:

Compressor part no: (note "R12" on the label)


the thicker hoses leading to / from the compressor say "R12 Freon" on them, one isn't in that good condition:



the thinner hose between condensor and expansion valve:



Switch on the heater box, one leads to the A/C switch, one via a fuse & relay to the pressure switch on the filter drier, and from there to the compressor



A/C button wiring - one goes to the heater box, the other to the fan switch:



Vaccuum for the air recirculation switch (also looks like it's retro-fitted) -



There was no idle speed compensation, no full-throttle cut-off, and no extra coolant temperature sensors to turn the extra fan on and off, I guess it just turns on together with the compressor.

Basically my question is - what do I need to get hold of before fitting it all back in (part numbers maybe?) and refilling it with R134a?

Going through one of Andy's old posts:

New drier about 50 quid
New O-rings and ester oil about 20 quid.
Conversion fittings about 20 quid.

http://www.volvo300mania.com/forum-uk/v ... ?f=5&t=337

How can I check if the fittings on mine are those for R134a? The OE part number for the drier is 3206858 - but if I search for that I get parts which are designed for R12. Any advice on which drier to get? I'm also not sure what to look for when looking at pressure switches (R134a is filled under higher pressure, right?)

Cheers

Tom

[volvodspec]

are you a dutch v3c member Tom? you can download a full documentation about ac from that members menu.

i'm just reading it through to figure out how to do mine and there's some very usefull info in it..

as for refilling with r134a ; you indeed need those parts.

the b14 i took the ac off had a bracket bolted to the front beam; dryer was allmost in the same place though.

and you'll definatly need to replace that hose! you can see the guard material and below that there's only 2,5mm rubber left! check the other hoses too, better safe than sorry..

[trabitom99]

are you a dutch v3c member Tom? you can download a full documentation about ac from that members menu.
i'm just reading it through to figure out how to do mine and there's some very usefull info in it..
as for refilling with r134a ; you indeed need those parts.
the b14 i took the ac off had a bracket bolted to the front beam; dryer was allmost in the same place though.
and you'll definatly need to replace that hose! you can see the guard material and below that there's only 2,5mm rubber left! check the other hoses too, better safe than sorry..

No, I'm not a member (yet)! But I do have the green book - I scanned it once:
http://www.volvo300mania.com/forum-uk/v ... 07&p=72393

I might as well replace all 4 hoses while I'm at it. Just need to find a place which makes them up first ...
Which drier will you be using for your car?

Tom

[volvodspec]

group 87; same as ours but yours is in german and on v3c in dutch

a hydraulics man can do the hoses, but the ac hoses are kinda special, they're really thickwalled fullrubber with a harness 2/3 to the center.. (dawm that's difficult to say in english i must be way wrong on it..)

i'll try to fit a terberg terminal dryer, maybe the condensor too if that's leaking.

i'm putting my kit fully together with new o-rings beside the engine; then test the system by pressurizing it and test for leaks; then test the magnetic pulley of the pump. if that's ok i'll built it in with new o-rings (again) and do the wiring. only risk by then is that the pump could be faulty, won't know that till i try it out

i've planned on filling it with r134a too, but i haven't got enough info to know what you'll need to replace.. a guy at terberg said that with new dryer, o-rings and a non-leaking system it will work fine; but then again, he isn't an expert in these conversions too.. only problem with r134a i know off is that you need to fill it up every year, doesn't beat the coolness though

[trabitom99]

a hydraulics man can do the hoses, but the ac hoses are kinda special, they're really thickwalled fullrubber with a harness 2/3 to the center.. (dawm that's difficult to say in english i must be way wrong on it..)

That's a good piece of info, thanks ...

i'll try to fit a terberg terminal dryer, maybe the condensor too if that's leaking.

i'm putting my kit fully together with new o-rings beside the engine; then test the system by pressurizing it and test for leaks; then test the magnetic pulley of the pump. if that's ok i'll built it in with new o-rings (again) and do the wiring. only risk by then is that the pump could be faulty, won't know that till i try it out

i've planned on filling it with r134a too, but i haven't got enough info to know what you'll need to replace.. a guy at terberg said that with new dryer, o-rings and a non-leaking system it will work fine; but then again, he isn't an expert in these conversions too.. only problem with r134a i know off is that you need to fill it up every year, doesn't beat the coolness though

I've also read in various forums about R413A being an alternative to R134a particularly with older, R12 systems, as it's not as aggressive?

Tom

[pettaw]

Hi guys, sorry for getting to this so late, have been meaning to post up the last few days but kinda never got round to it.

Firstly, if you're going to the trouble of stripping everything down then don't bother with any drop in blends or alternative refrigerants. R134a is the best you're gonna get, and works fine especially as you look to have a pretty good condensor there which is the key to getting good performance of R134a. Any local A/C shop should be able to make up hoses for you straight away tbh. I know I've got a shop here that can do it no problem. Just take the original hoses to them and say I want one of these please Again the driers are fairly standard, so should pose no problem for an A/C shop to match up.

What are the charging ports like? Do they look like a tyre valve or do they more resemble a fitting that you could imagine something would clip round? If its the former, you're gonna need either conversion fittings or preferably new fittings put in, maybe at the same time as you get the new hoses you need made up. You'll want to see both low pressure side and high pressure side fittings if possible, because that makes charging/discharging and diagnosis much easier. I know many cars either just have a high side or just a low side fitting nowadays, but thats a cost cutting manufacturers trick, with the added benefit of you really can't tell what's broken/blocked/blown up if the system shuts down so you're then into changing all of their lovely components until you find the problem.

Hope that helps.

Andy.

[trabitom99]

Hi Andy,

thanks for your help!

Any local A/C shop should be able to make up hoses for you straight away tbh. I know I've got a shop here that can do it no problem. Just take the original hoses to them and say I want one of these please Again the driers are fairly standard, so should pose no problem for an A/C shop to match up.

I've googled a place not so far from here, I'll see if I can visit them tomorrow. The parts are out of the cellar, and back in the boot of the car again

What are the charging ports like? Do they look like a tyre valve or do they more resemble a fitting that you could imagine something would clip round? If its the former, you're gonna need either conversion fittings or preferably new fittings put in, maybe at the same time as you get the new hoses you need made up.

I'm gessing these are the charging ports, on the side of the compressor?

Looks very much like a tyre valve ... I'll see what they say.

In the meantime: some more pics:
Serial no of the evaporator: "Delanair Made in U.K." The donor car must have been fitted with A/C fairly early on in it's life, as Delanair Limited (Ammanford, South Wales) became Valeo Climate Control Ltd in 1989 (acc. to Google)

A new company, Delanair Ltd., manufacturing car heating units, took over the factory premises at Ammanford in 1969 only to bought up by French company Valeo Climate Control Ltd, who transferred to a new factory in Gorseinon, near Swansea, in 1992.

The expansion valve:


Tom

[volvodspec]

I'm gessing these are the charging ports, on the side of the compressor?

yes they are

Tom, i had a closer look at the interior loom of my '86 340 dl special; it has an extra white wire with connector 20cm back from the heater switch, so it's most likely allready a little bit pre-wired you're making more speed with the ac than i do hahaha; but info from Andy about the R134A is very appreciated; no problems with filling the system with that after all, saves some worries

[pettaw]

Tom yes those are the charging ports, and they're R12 ones. Are you sure there's no other ports anywhere on the system? I'm surprised because to convert to R134a you should be putting the R134a fittings. Unfortunately there's no room on there to get R134a conversion pieces to fit, and tbh if you need new hoses and a new drier, then you might as well's get new hoses with ports added. Probably the best place to go would be a high side port directly on the fitting that comes from the discharge (thinner) port on the compressor and the low side port on the fitting that comes from the suction side (large) side of the expansion valve.

The only thing to be a bit careful about for converting an R12 system really, is when you come to charge with R134a, you might need to adjust the refrigerant amount to compensate for the slightly higher discharge pressures with R134a, but since we don't get such sweltering temperatures that often here in the UK, its not so much of a worry as it is in some parts of the USA for instance.

The Delanair evaporator label looks virtually identical to the one on my factory original system, so I guess they used a factory evap for their conversion.

[foggyjames]

Just a little bit of (most likely useless) information. If memory serves, a Sanden SD-508 is the compressor from a 740/760. The original 360 one had a different number....706, or something like that. I have one downstairs, but it's buried, and I'm lazy! It's got more...er...spinny bits...inside it, but each one is less powerful...if that makes sense?

It's been a couple of years since I last looked at it, so that could be a load of rubbish...but that's my memory. I don't think it makes a lot of difference, either way. Someone did offer a suggestion of why they're different at the time, but I can't remember what it was.

cheers

James

[pettaw]

You're kind of right Foggy. The original compressor on the system was the slightly larger SD510, but an SD508 will do just fine IMO. Nowadays all the numbering has gone metric, and they don't make an equivalent of the SD510 (5 cylinder 10 inch displacement) so the closest you're gonna get is the SD7H15 (7 cylinder 150cm3 displacement).....can I take my anorak off now Anyway an SD508 will do just fine I think cos the compressor on mine pulls the system down very quickly and is probably a bit on the big side for the size of system IMO.

[foggyjames]

Ah, so the 360 compressor is actually larger? Crikey!

There are plenty of 508s about, thanks to 7/900s...although the later ones don't use the same type of hose unions.

cheers

James

[trabitom99]

Bear in mind there are loads of different versions of the same compressor - it's really important that the clutch length is the same, so that the belt is aligned correctly ...

Since those are R12 ports, I wonder how the system had a R134a filling? The seller was sure it had been refilled with R134a at some point. I didn't manage to find any other kind of port on the system, unless you count this thing on the lower side of the expansion valve which I can't identify:



I took my hoses to a local A/C place today, and left the compressor and drier with them so they can match something up. They agreed that there wouldn't be enough space on the compressor to get R134a conversion pieces to fit, and would come up with some kind of solution to that problem. Now I'm waiting for a price ...

Tom

[volvodspec]

the nipples for R134a filling can be connected to an adaptor piece for the original nipples on the compressor, i'm pretty sure Francois did it that way in the past. those nipple's aren't that hard to fabricate.

[trabitom99]

The A/C place just rang, they have adapter fittings which will fit on the compressor. I've now ordered

new hoses
adapter fittings
new drier
new pressure switch

Pics when I get them!

Tom